>>> CHILDREN WITH SPECIAL NEEDS DON'T ALWAYS GET THE ATTENTION THEY REQUIRE IN MAINSTREAM CLASSROOMS.

TONIGHT, MEET THE MOMS WHO WANTED TO PERFECT SCHOOL FOR THEIR CHILDREN WITH DOWN SYNDROME, SO THEY OPENED THEIR OWN.

IT'S THE CITY'S ONLY INDEPENDENT INCLUSION SCHOOL, WHERE CHILDREN OF ALL BACKGROUNDS AND IDENTITIES LEARN SIDE BY SIDE.

THEN, OUTSPOKEN AUTHOR OF ACTIVIST IRSHAD MANJI TAKE ON LABELS AND GENDER ROLES.

"METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY -- JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION, ESTATE OF ROLAND CARLIN.

THE JPB FOUNDATION.

>>> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JACK FORD.

TONIGHT WE WELCOME THE COFOUNDER OF A UNIQUE SCHOOL AS PROVIDING A MODEL OF INCLUSIVE CITY FOR LEARNING.

THE IDEAL SCHOOL IN MANHATTAN THE CITY'S ONLY K THROUGH 12 INDEPENDENT INCLUSION SCHOOL.

FOUNDED THREE YEARS AGO BY THREE MOTHER OF A SPECIFIC NEED -- A TRULY INCLUSIVE DIVERSE SCHOOL WITH SMALL CLASSES WHERE STUDENTS OF ALL ABILITIES CAN LEARN TOGETHER IN THE CLASSROOM.

SCHOOL HAS GROWN OVER THE YEARS, NOW MOVING TO A NEW LARGER HOME DOWN IN THE FINANCIAL DISTRICT, AND HERE TO TALK ABOUT THE SCHOOL AS PART OF OUR CHASING THE DREAM INITIATIVE, FOCUSING ON SOLUTIONS TO STRUCTURAL INEQUITIES ARE TWO OF THE COFOUNDERS OF THE IDEAL SCHOOL OF MANHATTAN, AUDRA ZUCKERMAN AND MICHELLE SMITH.

LADIES, WELCOME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> AUDRA, LET ME COME TO YOU FIRST IF I CAN.

I GAVE A BRIEF INTRODUCTION, BUT WE WANT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT HOW AND WHY THE DECISION WAS MADE TO CREATE THIS APPROACH TO LEARNING.

>> SURE.

SO, BACK IN 2005, MICHELLE AND I BOTH HAD YOUNG CHILDREN WITH DOWN SYNDROME, AND WE WERE LOOKING FOR A SCHOOL SETTING WHERE OUR CHILDREN COULD BE INCLUDED WITH THEIR PEERS, COULD GO TO SCHOOL WITH THEIR PEERS OF THE SAME AGE.

THEY HAD BEEN INCLUDED IN EVERYTHING THAT WE DID IN YOUR LYES UP UNTIL THEN.

WENT TO INCLUSIVE PRESCHOOL SETTINGS.

A WE THOUGHT, THIS IS NEW YORK CITY.

THERE ARE SO MANY SCHOOL OPTIONS.

THIS SHOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE.

BUT WE ENDED UP COMING UP AGAINST A LOT OF ROADBLOCKS IN THIS PROCESS.

MANY OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SETTINGS COULDN'T PROVIDE THE RESOURCES OR WOULDN'T PROVIDE THE RESOURCES TO SUPPORT OUR STUDENTS IN THE WAY THAT WE KNEW THAT THEY NEEDED IT TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS WEREN'T INTERESTED IN TAKING STUDENTS WITH DOWN SYNDROME, AND MANY OF THE SPECIAL EDUCATION SCHOOLS WERE NOT INCLUSIVE OR THEY REALLY FOCUSED ON A PARTICULAR TYPE OF DISABILITY, NOT INCLUDING DOWN SYNDROME.

SO WE THOUGHT, THIS IS CRAZY.

AGAIN, IT'S NEW YORK CITY.

HOW COULD THIS BE POSSIBLE?

WE SHOULDN'T NEED TO LEAVE THE CITY THAT WE LOVE AND WANTED TO RAISE OUR CHILDREN IN JUST TO FIND AN INCLUSIVE, EDUCATIONAL SET.

SO WE GOT TOGETHER WITH ANOTHER FAMILY, AND WE STARTED TO SAY TO EACH OTHER, LET'S TRY THIS.

LET'S TRY TO START A SCHOOL WHERE STUDENTS OF ALL ABILITIES CAN LEARN TOGETHER IN ONE PLACE, BE ACCEPTED FOR WHO THEY ARE, HAVE A CURRICULUM THAT MEETS EACH STUDENT WHERE THEY ARE IN THE LEARNING PROCESS, AND CAN REPLICATE THE BEAUTIFUL COMMUNITY OF NEW YORK CITY ITSELF AND THE DIVERSITY OF NEW YORK CITY ITSELF.

>> MICHELLE, LET ME ASK YOU TO EXPAND ON THAT A LITTLE BIT.

AND I THINK AUDRA, SOME OF HER ANSWER PROVIDED THAT, BUT FOR SOME CLARITY FOR OUR VIEWERS, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE NOTION OF INCLUSIVE EDUCATION, WHAT DOES THAT ACTUALLY MEAN?

>> IT MEANS COEDUCATING, NOT PULLING OUT OF CLASSROOMS, NOT MAKING ANYONE FEEL BAD OR EXTRA GOOD, AND CREATING A MODEL WHERE PEOPLE CAN LEARN TOGETHER AS LONG AS THE PROGRAM AND THE CHILDREN ARE SURROUNDED WITH DIFFERENTIATED INSTRUCTION.

>> THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT.

LET ME ASK TO YOU FOLLOW UP ON THAT.

I KNOW AND I'M SURE YOU RUN INTO THIS, WHERE SOME PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE A MISPERCEPTION OR JUST DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND IT AND SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, IF YOU'RE PUTTING EVERYBODY IN ONE CLASSROOM, DOES THAT MEAN THOSE WITH -- WE HEAR THE TERM SPECIAL NEEDS OFTEN USED -- DOES THAT MEAN THEY'RE GOING TO GET THE EMPHASIS AND THE OTHERS WILL NOT?

WHAT IS THE ANSWER TO THAT IN TERMS OF THE BALANCE IN THE CLASSROOM?

>> SO, OUR ANSWER TO THAT IN OUR CLASSROOMS IS COTEACHING, AND EVERYBODY IS MET WITH HOW THEY LEARN, AND SO ALL THE KIDS, TYPICALLY DEVELOPING CHILDREN THAT ARE NONTYPICAL, ARE HAVING INDIVIDUALIZED EDUCATION LEARNING PLANS TO MEET THEM WHERE THEY ARE.

AND SO IF MATH IS BEING TAUGHT, MATH IS DIRECTED THE WAY IT NEEDS TO BE DIRECTED FOR THAT STUDENT AND NOBODY'S BEING DRAGGED DOWN.

IT'S A MYTH.

AND NOBODY IS LEFT BEHIND THAT MIGHT BE LEARNING AT A DIFFERENT PACE, AND OUR ANSWER TO IT WAS CREATING A COTEACHING MODEL TO DIFFERENTIATE THE INSTRUCTION FOR THAT PARTICULAR LEARNER.

>> IT SOUNDS LIKE SUCH COMMON SENSE.

IT SOUNDS SO SIMPLE.

WE'RE IN THE SAME STRUCTURE, IN THE SAME ROOM, EVERYBODY'S TOGETHER, BUT WE HAVE TEACHING THAT IS TAILORED TO THE GROUPS.

SO I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU, AUDRA, AND YOU MENTIONED THIS BEFORE, WHY WASN'T IT BEING DONE IN NEW YORK CITY BEFORE YOU ALL DID IT?

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION, AND I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE OF REASONS.

SO FIRST IS IT DOES REQUIRE SOME ADDITIONAL RESOURCES.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE -- EVERY ORGANIZATION HAS TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT PRIORITIES AND COMMITMENT OF RESOURCES, SO ONE WAY THAT RESOURCES ARE IMPORTANT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT INCLUSION IS THE COTEACHING MODEL THAT MICHELLE MENTIONED, SO THAT'S A GENERAL EDUCATOR AND SPECIAL EDUCATOR WORKING TOGETHER IN THE CLASSROOM.

THAT'S AN ADDITIONAL FULL HEAD TEACHER IN A CLASSROOM.

THERE IS TRAINING THAT IS INVOLVED.

THERE ARE OTHER RESOURCE ISSUES.

AND TOUGH MAKE THEM A PRIORITY.

BUT I THINK THE BIGGER ISSUE THAT YOU COME UP AGAINST WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT INCLUSION IN OTHER EDUCATIONAL SYSTEMS IS IT'S A MATTER OF PRIORITIZING AND BELIEVING IN THE VALUE OF HAVING A DIVERSE EDUCATIONAL ENVIRONMENT.

SO, AT IDEAL, EVERYBODY THERE IS ON BOARD WITH THE MISSION OF INCLUSION.

IT IS INCLUSIVE FROM THE TOP DOWN TO THE BOTTOM UP.

NOBODY WALKS IN THAT DOOR AND HAS TO LEAVE THEIR IDENTITY BEHIND AT THE DOOR.

IT'S A PHILOSOPHY.

IT'S A -- IT'S IN OUR DNA, RIGHT?

SO, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE THE EDUCATORS AT THE SCHOOL OR THE LEADERSHIP OF THE SCHOOL OR THE TEACHERS THERE, THAT'S A -- YOU'RE IN A DIFFERENT SITUATION.

WHAT WE HAVE AT IDEAL AND WHAT WE WOULD LOVE TO SEE IN OTHER SCHOOLS -- PUBLIC, PRIVATE, ANYTHING, ACROSS THE COUNTRY -- IS A BELIEF IN YOUR CHILDREN, THE BELIEF THAT ALL CHILDREN CAN LEARN, ALL CHILDREN ARE VALUABLE TO A COMMUNITY, THAT EVERYBODY BRINGS SOMETHING TO THE TABLE, AND THAT ALL STUDENTS ARE TEACHABLE.

EVERYBODY AT THE IDEAL SCHOOL BELIEVES THAT.

WE SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER, CELEBRATE EACH OTHERS DIFFERENCES.

IT'S OKAY IF ONE STUDENT STRUGGLES IN ONE AREA.

THERE WILL BE ANOTHER AREA THEY ARE SPECTACULAR IN.

>> MICHELLE, TO HELP US UNDERSTAND, WHAT DOES A CLASSROOM IN THE IDEAL SCHOOL LOOK LIKE AND FEEL LIKE AND SOUND LIKE?

>> YEAH, AUDRA LOVES THIS ONE.

AUDRA, I'D LOVE TO TOSS THIS TO YOU.

>> GOOD.

AUDRA, IT'S ALL YOURS.

>> QUITE HONESTLY IT LOOKS LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASSROOM IN AMERICA.

OUR CLASSROOMS DON'T LOOK DIFFERENT, AND IN FACT, OFTENTIMES YOU'RE NOT EVEN GOING TO BE ABLE TO KNOW WHICH STUDENTS ARE RECEIVING EXTRA SUPPORT IN THE SCHOOL.

NOT EVERYBODY HAS A VISIBLE DISABILITY.

WHAT YOU MIGHT SEE THAT IS DIFFERENCE IN AN IDEAL SCHOOL CLASSROOM IS THERE ARE SMALLER CLASS SIZES.

YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MORE INSTRUCTORS IN THE ROOM, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO REALLY KNOW WHICH TEACHERS ARE FOCUSING ON WHICH STUDENTS, BECAUSE EVERYBODY'S WORKING WITH EVERYBODY.

YOU MIGHT SEE FLEXIBLE GROUPING.

YOU MIGHT SEE STUDENTS ALL TOGETHER IN A CLASSROOM LEARNING ABOUT A SUBJECT AT ONE POINT AND BREAKING OFF INTO SMALLER GROUPS, RECEIVING THEIR DIFFERENTIATED INSTRUCTION, DOING DIFFERENT PROJECTS RELATED TO THE SAME TOPIC IN SMALL GROUPS.

YOU MIGHT SEE AT THE IDEAL SCHOOL SOMETHING THAT I AM REALLY PROUD OF THAT I THINK WE'RE ALL REALLY PROUD OF THAT WE DO IS WE DO NOT PULL STUDENTS OUT OF THE CLASSROOM TO GET THEIR THERAPIES.

SO YOU MIGHT SEE ALL STUDENTS LEAVING THE CLASSROOM TO GO TO DIFFERENT ELECTIVES.

ONE STUDENT MIGHT BE GOING TO AN ART ELECTIVE, ONE TO A MUSIC ELECTIVE, ONE STUDENT MIGHT BE GETTING OCCUPATIONAL THERAPY.

THERE'S NO STIGMA, NO DIFFERENCE IN HOW THEY'RE TREATED AND PERCEIVED BY THE COMMUNITY.

>> HERE'S WHAT YOU FEEL -- WHEN YOU WALK IN THAT SCHOOL AND YOU WATCH THESE HUMAN BEINGS -- TEACHERS, ADMIN AND THE STUDENTS WITH EACH OTHER, YOU FEEL RESPECT.

YOU FEEL COMPLETE IMMERSION OF, THIS ISN'T MY FRIEND DYLAN BE DOWN SYNDROME, AND HE CAN'T READ.

THIS IS MY FRIEND DYLAN.

THAT'S WHAT YOU FEEL.

YOU SEE AND VISCERALLY FEEL HOW, IF WE STARTED TEACHING HUMAN BEINGS AT YOUNG AGES THAT DIFFERENCES ARE OKAY, THEY'RE NOT SCARY, WE ALL HAVE TO ADAPT, WE ALL HAVE TO COEXIST.

IT'S AN ABSOLUTELY REMARKABLE SOCIAL STUDY TO WATCH AND FEEL.

>> HOW DID YOUR OWN CHILDREN -- HOW DID YOUR OWN CHILDREN DO?

HOW DID THEY BENEFIT FROM THIS TYPE OF ENVIRONMENT?

>> I CAN TELL YOU MY SON MAX, WHO IS NOW 20 YEARS OLD, HE STATED THE SCHOOL.

HE WAS IN THE FIRST GRADE WHEN WE OPENED IT.

HE WAS IN THE FIRST GRADUATING CLASS IN 2018.

HE IS PROUD OF THE FACT THAT HE HAS DOWN SYNDROME.

HE DOESN'T THINK OF IT AS A NEGATIVE.

IT IS JUST A PART OF HIS IDENTITY.

IT IS PART OF WHO HE IS.

THAT IS SOMETHING WE WORK VERY, VERY HARD TO CULTIVATE AT THE SCHOOL WITH AN INTENTIONAL IDENTITY CURRICULUM, WITH THE SOCIAL JUSTICE WORK THAT WE DO.

FROM KINDERGARTEN ON, EVERY STUDENT -- IT'S NOT JUST STUDENTS ARE DISABILITIES.

IT'S AN INCREDIBLY DIVERSE POPULATION -- ARE CELEBRATING ONE ANOTHER'S UNIQUE ASPECTS FROM THE BEGINNING.

THERE'S ALSO THE FACT THAT I THINK HE DID REACH HIS POTENTIAL IN ALL OF THE SUBJECT AREAS HE WORKED ON AT SCHOOL BECAUSE HE FELT SAFE, FELT ACCEPTED, AND HE WAS TAUGHT TO ACCESS THE CURRICULUM AT THE LEVEL WHERE HE WAS AT EACH STAGE.

>> MICHELLE, HOW ABOUT YOU?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, OUR MODEL TACKLES BULLYING WITHOUT HAVE TO SAY TACKLES BULLYING.

MY SON DIDN'T GET BULLIED.

KIDS WITH DOWN SYNDROME CAN BE TARGETS.

KIDS WITH DIFFERENCES CAN BE TARGETS.

KIDS WITHOUT DISABILITIES CAN BE TARGETS.

THIS MODEL -- OUR SCHOOL IS A MOVEMENT.

IT WAS A MOVEMENT WAY BACK WHEN.

THE ISSUES WE'RE SEEING NOW WITH THE DIFFERENCES AND JUST THE HARASSMENT IS INCLUSION SOLVES THE PROBLEM.

THIS COEXISTENT CONCEPT FROM A YOUNG AGE, AND IT'S IN THE DNA OF EVERYBODY AND EVERYTHING.

WE HAVE WORD OF THE MONTH IDEAL.

IT'S NOT WORD OF THE MONTH FOR SPECIAL NEEDS CHILDREN.

IT'S WORD OF THE MONTH.

WE ARE ALL ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS, CIVIL JUSTICE, SOCIAL JUSTICE.

THIS IS AN ANSWER TO ONE OF THE MOST SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS.

WE ARE SEEING IN YOUTH.

>> ONCE AGAIN, THE IDEAL SCHOOL OF MANHATTAN, JUST AS I SAID BEFORE, A MARVELOUS IDEA THAT HAS BEEN PUT INTO PLAY AND HAS ACCOMPLISHED EVERYTHING THAT WE COULD HOPE FOR, AND WE JUST NEED MORE OF IT.

SO OUR THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU, AUDRA AND MICHELLE, FOR JOINING US, AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO MAYBE TALKING TO YOU AGAIN DOWN THE ROAD AND SEEING HOW ALL OF THIS IS EVOLVE.

YOU ALL BE WELL.

TAKE CARE NOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> IRSHAD MANJI'S GROUND BREAKING BOOK "THE TROUBLE WITH ISLAM" MADE HER ONE OF THE MOST ADMIRED AND REVILED WRITERS AND THINKERS AROUND THE WORLD.

AS A VOICE WHO REFUSES TO BE SILENCED HER VOICE LIES IN HER MASTERY OF MORAL COUNSELOR.

HE'S A WOMAN WHO HAD MANY LABELS THROWN AT HER AND REFUSES TO WEAR ANY OF THEM.

SHE JOINS US NOW TO TALK ABOUT HER NEW BOOK WHICH HAS JUST CAME OUT CALLED "DON'T LABEL ME" AN INCREDIBLE CONVERSATION.

>> LET'S START WITH LABELS.

WHY DO YOU THINK -- I KNOW YOU TALK ABOUT THIS.

WHY DO YOU THINK WE AS A SOCIETY FIND LABELS SO SEDUCTIVE?

>> IT'S NOT JUST WE AS A SOCIETY, IT'S HUMANITY.

LOOK, WE HUMAN BEINGS THINK FIRST AND FOREMOST EMOTIONALLY, AND BIOLOGICALLY SPEAKING, THE EASIEST EMOTION TO HAVE IS FEAR.

NOW, TALK THAT UP WITH THE FACT THAT WE ARE ALL IMMERSED IN DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE DESIGNED TO AMP UP OUR EMOTIONS.

AND THEN FINISH IT ALL OFF WITH THE FACT THAT VERY FEW OF US HAVE EVER BEEN TAUGHT TO SORT OF BE AWARE OF OUR EMOTIONS, LET ALONE EXPRESS THEM CONSTRUCTIVELY.

SO, IN THIS TOXIC CAULDRON, LABELS BECOME CONVENIENT TOOLS WITH WHICH TO SORT OF INDULGE OUR EMOTIONS AND AVOID REFLECTION.

>> CONVENIENT AND REQUIRE VERY LITTLE WORK.

>> WELL, EXACTLY, HENCE CONVENIENT.

LOOK, WE ARE ALL BORN WITH BRAINS THAT ARE BOTH PRIMITIVE AND EVOLVED, BUT THE FIRST THING THAT ANY KIND OF STIMULI GOES THROUGH IN THE BRAIN IS THE PRIMITIVE PART.

AND THE PRIMITIVE PART DOESN'T WANT TO WORK.

IT ONLY REACTS SO WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WAYS TO LITERALLY OUTWIT OUR OWN BRAINS.

>> AND YOU TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE WAYS.

I'M GOING GET TO THEM IN A MOMENT.

BUT I DO WANT THE TALK ABOUT -- I DON'T WANT TO CALL IT A DEVICE THAT DRIVES THIS CONVERSATION.

WE TALK ABOUT AN INCREDIBLEK BECAUSE IT'S A UNIQUE CONVERSATION THAT YOU'RE HAVING, SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY SPECIAL TO YOU, YOUR DOG, NO LONGER WITH US.

>> NO.

>> BUT A CONVERSATION THROUGHOUT THIS, AND I HEARD YOU TACK ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT'S WHAT HELPED TO STIMULATE THE IDEA BEHIND THAT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> HOW?

>> SO, I JUST MENTIONED THE MOST DANGEROUS FOUR LETTER "F" WORD IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, AND THAT IS FEAR, EXACTLY.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT, I GREW UP WITH A VERY UNHEALTHY FEAR OF DOGS.

ONE YEAR I WAS HAVING A PARTICULARLY TOUGH TIME WITH MY HEALTH, AND MY THEN PARTNER NOW WIFE LAURA SAID, IRSHAD, YOU'VE GOT TO EVOLVE.

YOU'VE GOT TO GET PAST YOUR FEAR.

LET'S ADOPT A RESCUE DOG, AND YOU'LL SEE WHAT A HEALER THAT DOG CAN BE.

HOW CAN I POSSIBLY TEACH MORAL COURAGE IF I'M NOT WILLING TO GO FIRST?

AND SO WE BROUGHT LILY HOME AND JACK, FOR ALL I CAN TELL YOU FOR THE TWO PRECIOUS YEARS I HAD WITH HER, I LEARNED NOT ONLY WERE MY OWN FEARS OF DOGS BEGGING TO BE OVERCOME, BUT WHEN I DID OVERCOME THOSE FEARS, I LEARNED SO MUCH FROM LILY.

THE VALUE, FOR EXAMPLE, OF JUST GETTING OUT OF OUR DEVICES, CLOSING UP THE LAPTOP, AND GETTING INTO THE GRASS AND PLAYING.

YES, I KNOW, FOR -- YOU KNOW, FOR ANIMAL LOVERS, THAT'S A NO-BRAINER, BUT UNDERSTAND THAT TODAY WE ARE ALL DOING THIS.

IF WE COULD JUST REALIZE THAT BY SLOWING DOWN, TAKING A DEEP BREATH, ANDH ACTUALLY, WHAT WE WIND UP DOING IS TRANSCENDING THE FEAR-BASED PART OF THE BRAIN SO THAT EVEN WHEN WE'RE ENGAGING SOMEBODY WE DISAGREE WITH, THE FIRST THING TO DO AND BEST THING TO DO IS BREATHE.

WHO KNEW?

SO SIMPLE.

THANK YOU, LILY.

>> YEAH, FOR LILY.

>> WE TALKED ABOUT THE NOTION OF LABELS.

YOU MENTIONED THE CONCEPT OF TRIBALISM.

WE'RE HARD WIRED FOR THAT.

YOU LOOK AT IT IN THE WAYS IT MANIFEST ITSELF.

YOU AND I WERE TALK ABOUT THIS BEFOREHAND.

PEOPLE DON'T HAVE CONVERSATIONS ANYMORE.

WE'RE FEARFUL OF SOMEBODY REJECTING OUR OPINIONS, WE DON'T WANT TO ACCEPT THEIR OPINIONS.

HOW MUCH OF THIS DO YOU THINK FLOWS FROM WHAT WE SEE -- AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT BOTH PARTIES IN WASHINGTON.

>> YOU BET.

>> YOU CANNOT HAVE A DISAGREEMENT POLITICALLY WITHOUT VILIFYING THE PERSON YOU'RE DISAGREEING -- IT'S BEEN DESCRIBED AS THE POLITIC OF PERSONAL DESTRUCTION.

>> RIGHT, RIGHT.

>> HAS THAT ALWAYS BEEN, OR HAS IT BECOME MORE ENHANCED LATELY?

>> I'M GOING TO GUESS THAT YOU WOULD AGREE WITH ME THAT IT HAS BECOME MORE ENHANCED LITLY.

WE HAVE BEEN LIVING WITH THE POLITICS OF PERSONAL DESTRUCTION, AND I BELIEVES THAT BILL CLINTON'S PHASE FROM WAY BACK THEN.

WE HAVE BEEN LIVING WITH THAT FOR A LONG TIME.

BUT IF YOU'RE WONDERING WHY IT'S BECOME EVEN WORSE NOW, I WOULD SAY THAT SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE IMPULSIVE SORT OF TRIGGERS THAT IT FEEDS TO US HAS MADE THINGS THAT MUCH WORSE, WHICH IS WHY -- AND I THINK THIS IS WHERE YOU WERE GOING -- LET'S GET OUR HEADS OUT OF THAT MONITOR OR THAT SCREEN AND ACTUALLY SPEAK WITH ONE ANOTHER FACE-TO-FACE.

YOU KNOW WHAT, JACK?

I TELL A STORY IN THIS BOOK ABOUT TWO YOUNG PEOPLE.

ONE A BIRACIAL HIP-HOP HARDTIST.

THE OTHER, A WHITE GUY.

BOTH OF THEM COMPLETELY DISAGREE ABOUT WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN WITH THE MISSISSIPPI STATE FLAG, OKAY, BECAUSE IT CONTAINS SOME CONFEDERATE ERA SYMBOLS.

SHE WANTS TO IT CHANGE.

HE DOESN'T.

SOMETHING THAT SHE SAYS AND DOES GOES VIRAL.

HE GETS IN TOUCH WITH HER.

SHE INVITES HIM TO THE BACKYARD TO SIT DOWN AND TALK.

LET'S DISCUSS THIS.

BY THE END OF THAT EXPERIENCE, IT'S NOT THAT HE CHANGES HIS MIND.

THAT WOULD BE TOO EASY A CONCLUSION.

NO, IT'S THAT HE REALIZES THAT HE CARES MORE ABOUT HER THAN HE DOES ABOUT THE FLAG.

THAT IS WHAT HUMAN TO HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS OR HUMAN TO LILY RELATIONSHIPS CAN DO FOR US.

>> HOW DO WE GET OURSELVES AWAY FROM -- AND AGAIN, I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING YOU SAY IS HUMAN NATURE.

WE LAKE TO BE SURROUNDED BY LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE.

WE LIKE TO BE SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO SOUND LIKE US, WHO THINK LIKE US.

>> WHO LOOK LIKE US.

>> WHO LOOK LIKE US.

AND WE KNOW THAT.

SO HOW DO WE GET OURSELVES TO A DIFFERENT PLACE, EVEN THOUGH THAT IS ALL REINFORCED BY -- YOU LOOK AT THE NEWS, AND PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THERE ARE A LOT OF VENUES OUT THERE THAT JUST HAVE AN AGENDA AND THEY'RE BEATING THE DRUM.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> OPINION HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN INTEGRAL PART OF JOURNALISM.

BUT WHAT BOTHERS ME IS WE'RE SEEING MORE OPINION, LESS FACT OF DISCUSSION.

HOW DO WE GET PEOPLE TO REMOVE THEMSELVES FROM THE ECHO CHAMBERS AND SIT AND LISTEN.

MIGHT NOT CHANGE THEIR MIND, BUT AT LEAST THEY'LL BE WILLING TO LISTEN.

>> EXACTLY.

HOW DO WE DO THAT?

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT BEGINS WITH EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US.

INSTEAD OF POINTING FINGERS BECAUSE HAD HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO ME, ASK YOURSELF, HOW AM I CONTRIBUTING TO THIS PROBLEM.

MEANING, IF I'M EYE ROLLING, IF I'M BERATING INSTEAD OF RELATING, IF I'M LABELING THIS PERSON, THEN I HAVE FIXED HIM IN PLACE.

I HAVE FROZEN HIM IN TIME.

WHAT MOTIVATION HAVE I GIVEN THAT OTHER PERSON TO THEN LOWER HIS EMOTIONAL DEFENSES SO THAT HE CAN HEAR ME?

SO, HERE'S WHAT I SAY.

WHEN YOU ARE ENTERING A CONVERSATION OR WANTING TO ENTER INTO A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEBODY WHO PROFOUNDLY DISAGREES WITH YOU ON SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE PASSIONATE ABOUT, ASK THEM -- TELL ME, WHAT AM I MISSING ABOUT YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

DON'T GO IN MAKING STATEMENTS.

ASK SINCERE QUESTIONS.

AND THEN LISTEN, LISTEN TO UNDERSTAND NOT TO WIN.

BECAUSE THIS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A DEBATE.

IT'S A DISCUSSION.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE I WOULD SUSPECT WHEN YOU -- AND I KNOW THIS.

THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS I DON'T GET INVOLVE IN THE DISCUSSIONS ANYMORE, BECAUSE I KNOW I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE THEIR MIND, BUT I PROBABLY SHOULD AT LEAST HAVE THE DISCUSSION.

>> AND I'M SO GLAD, JACK.

>> BECAUSE I THINK THE FEAR IS YOU SAY TO YOURSELF, WHY SHOULD I BOTHER ENGAGING IN THIS DISCUSSION.

>> >> HERE'S MY QUESTION TO YOU, WHY GO IN THERE WANTING TO CHANGE THE OTHER PERSON'S MIND.

IMAGINE WHAT YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO LEARN FROM THAT OTHER PERSON BY SIMPLY LISTENING.

THIS IS NOT BEING POLLY ANNAISH.

IF YOU CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT VALUES THEY HAVE, WHAT PERSPECTIVE THEY'RE COMING FROM, THAT IS CRUCIAL INFORMATION WITH WHICH YOU CAN REFRAME YOUR ARGUMENTS DOWN THE ROAD SO THAT IF YOU'RE REALLY STRUCK ON NEEDING TO CHANGE THEIR MIND, YOU'LL HAVE THE INFORMATION NECESSARY TO NOW EXPRESS YOUR POSITION IN A WAY THAT THEY CAN FINALLY HEAR.

>> LET ME TALK ABOUT THE YOUNGER GENERATION HERE, BECAUSE I KNOW YOU TALK ABOUT IT IN YOUR BOOK.

I WAS IN COLLEGE AT A TIME WHEN THE NATION WAS ROYALED OVER VIETNAM.

>> YEAH.

>> AND ONE OF THE THINGS I MOST REMEMBER ABOUT MY COLLEGE EXPERIENCE -- I WAS SAYING THIS TO SOME OF MY STUDENTS RECENTLY -- I CAN'T REMEMBER THE COURSE I TOOK.

I REMEMBER SOME THAT WERE FAVORITES BUT IF YOU ASK FOR A LIST I'M NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO IT.

BUT I REMEMBER THE CONVERSATIONS.

I REMEMBER SITTING IN DINING HALLS AND TALKING ABOUT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND THE VIETNAM WAR.

AND YOU GET THE SENSE THAT THERE ARE NOT THE SAME LEVEL -- AND I'M TOLD THIS BY SOME OF MY STUDENTS.

THERE'S NOT THE SAME LEVEL OF -- ON CAMPUSES.

AND AGAIN, SOME OF IT, I THINK, COMES FROM THAT FEAR.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> YOU'VE NAILED IT.

ACTUALLY, I WORK WITH COLLEGE STUDENTS AROUND THE COUNTRY AND, MUCH MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, REGARDLESS OF THEIR LABELS, WHATEVER THEY ARE COLOR, THEIR GENDER, THEIR RELIGION, THEY SAY TO ME, I'M AFRAID TO BE JUDGED IF I ASK -- GET THIS -- THE WRONG QUESTION.

THAT IS WHERE WE HAVE ARRIVED AS A SOCIETY AND, YES, AS HUMANITY.

THAT IF YOU USE A WORD YOU CAN MAKE A CLUMSY MISTAKE, YOU ARE HONESTLY MISSPOKEN, IT'S VERY EASY TO GET SLAMMED, SHAMED, BLAMED, AND GAMED, AND NOBODY WANTS THAT.

RIGHT?

SO THIS IS WHY I THINK, YOU KNOW, TEACHING THE SKILLS OF MORAL COURAGE IS SO IMPORTANT.

>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY MORAL COURAGE?

DEFINE THAT FOR US.

>> I MEAN DOING THE RIGHT THING IN THE FACE OF YOUR FEARS.

IF FOR EXAMPLE YOU KNOW THAT SOMETHING THAT SOMEBODY IS PROMOTING, A MESSAGE THEY'RE PROMOTING IS SOMEHOW INACCURATE OR DEROGATORY, THE WAY TO APPROACH IT IS KEY HERE.

I'M NOT SAYING DON'T STAND UP TO, YOU KNOW, INTOLERANCE OR OUTRIGHT HATE.

ABSOLUTELY STAND UP TO IT.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO GO INTO IT GUNS ABLAZING.

BECAUSE YOU REALLY WILL BE SHOT DOWN IN THAT CASE.

RATHER, YOU NEED TO BE INTELLIGENT ABOUT IT.

YOU KNOW?

AND THAT MEANS LISTENING BUT THEN ASKING.

YOU KNOW, AGAIN, HOW DID YOU COME UP WITH THIS?

I'M GENUINELY INTERESTED.

IN THE BOOK, ANOTHER STORY I TELL IS ABOUT A NOW FORMER WHITE NATIONALIST WHO REFORMED HIMSELF -- DOTES I DIDN'T SAY WAS REFORMED.

HE REFORMED HIMSELF.

HOW?

BECAUSE OF AN AMAZING FRIENDSHIP HE HAD WITH AN OBSERVANT JEW WHO DIDN'T TURN HIS BACK, DIDN'T GET IN HIS FACE, WHO DIDN'T TRY TO MAKE HIM DISAPPEAR, BUT RATHER WHO LISTENED AND ENGAGED.

AND OVER THE COURSE OF THREE YEARS, THIS WHITE NATIONALIST REALIZED, THE VIEWS I'VE GOT, THEY'RE NOT FACTUAL, AND MOREOVER, THEY HURT THE VERY PERSON THAT I CARE ABOUT.

>> THAT IS A GREAT STORY.

THE BOOK IS FILLED WITH GREAT STORIES.

ONCE AGAIN, IT'S ALLED "DON'T LABEL ME", AN INCREDIBLE CONVERSATION.

YOU AND I COULD TALK FOR HOURS.

WE MIGHT CONTINUE THAT.

BUT FOR NOW -- IT'S JUST, ONCE AGAIN, A VERY PROVOCATIVE, THROUGHOUTFUL, AND I THINK EXTRAORDINARILY HELPFUL LOOK, SO OUR THANKS TO YOU AND LILY.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, JUST HEARD FROM LILY.

SHE GIVES HER THANKS RIGHT BACK.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

YOU BE WELL.

WE'LL TALK SOON.

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